Drive and Convert

Announcer:
You are listening to Drive and Convert, a podcast about helping online brands to build a better e-commerce growth engine with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow.

Ryan:
So Jon, you and I have been in the e-comm space for a long time. Some might even say too long.

Jon:
I might be one of those.

Ryan:
But I do still feel like it changes enough and quick enough that it's always new and I don't get bored, I guess, which I like. And recently there's been quite a few conversations coming at me that's caused me to relook at my thoughts on video. And my feeling is that over the past 15 or so years that video generally speaking has gotten off to a few false starts to actually being valuable to helping brands grow at scale. I think there's just one-offs successes. I look back at the Old Spice videos on YouTube and that whole campaign that was video driven across multiple channels that I think their creative team did a phenomenal job there, but I haven't seen that scale yet as a source of traffic that I would really feel comfortable advising a brand to jump in. You've got to be doing video.

Jon:
Right. I mean we're still talking about the Dollar Shave Club video from a decade ago as a good example.

Ryan:
Yeah. How come nobody else has done that? I mean, they did it. They were smart and they did put a lot of thought around that to make it feel like it was random. I've read the case studies and researched that quite a bit because that's kind of the goal. Go from zero to a multi-billion dollar acquisition, yes. But I feel like it's coming. I've probably said that before years ago. I probably, I'm recorded somewhere on some stage saying video's coming, be ready.

Jon:
Yeah. That's what I love about you and I. We talk about so many things that eventually we're going to be right. Every squirrel finds a nut, right?

Ryan:
Yeah. I mean, I'll be wrong 99 times, but that one time I'll be right for the first time.

Jon:
Well, you're right about video. So let me ask you this then. You think video is going to just have this breakout year in '24? And I assume you have some data to back that up, is that what we're going to talk about today?

Ryan:
In a short answer, yes. I do think '24 is going to be a big year for video and I've got some points and hopefully a couple places that brands can dip their toes in to prove the model like I generally advocate for. Don't jump into the deep end with your business until you know that it can work.

Jon:
Right. Well, I was going to say video is such a large word. It's kind of like brand. So it can imply so many things, especially around driving traffic. So what do you mean? Any kind of video anywhere or certain types of video in specific places? What are we talking about? Set the context here.

Ryan:
Yeah. Well it's even funny we use the word video because it's video you record. We're not using VCRs anymore, it's on your phone.

Jon:
What was the big one on the big disc?

Ryan:
Oh, laser discs.

Jon:
Laser discs.

Ryan:
Was so jealous of my friend's parents that had a laser disc player with their giant TV that was back projected. Like, oh man, I was jealous that we had the little box TV, but that's dating myself for sure. But when it comes to econ and video now, generally, when I say video, I mean where you can put advertising dollars behind it with the expect to get a return. It's something you can advertise on or with. I don't advocate necessarily for putting a commercial out on linear TV during their Super Bowl. I've had some clients do that and it was frustrating for them, but I want to be able to track it, make sure that there's a return. And so that's what I think is coming. Video that can drive a return for a brand that's tangible that you will feel in the bank account.

Jon:
Okay. So did something happen recently that caused you to come to this conclusion or has this been kind of a slow build for you?

Ryan:
Well, it's likely both. Did I ever tell you about my failed video company that I try to partner with you on my company?

Jon:
No, but I am very interested in that.

Ryan:
So yeah, let's just add it to the list of Garrow businesses that didn't quite make it or maybe they were just before their time.

Jon:
If you're not trying new things, you're not learning, not growing. So I'm all for the failure, no issues there.

Ryan:
I like the Zuckerberg fail quick, break things, go fast, all that stuff.

Jon:
Okay, this is a new one for me though. I've not heard this before. What is this video called?

Ryan:
Video Pattern.

Jon:
Video Pattern?

Ryan:
Yep. I just found out last week actually that the website was still up and our servers at Logical Position were hosting it. I was partnered with Mike and Jon on this business and they're like, do you still need this up there because we're using service business? I'm like, I didn't even know that existed still. So let's take it down. So we had this idea, gosh, it was probably 16 or 17, so we're looking at six, seven years ago where we were going to scale video for SMB companies and we had this video partner, great guy in Portland, Bill Dolan, does amazing work.
We were going to create these, what he called donuts, where we create this video that we've tested and measured across multiple avenues for a certain vertical and we know it works. Then we just change the middle of it out to be the brand that we're talking about or the business we're talking about. Really liked the idea, thought it would scale. Well, we were thinking plumbers for example. Hey, if we had a video that would work on YouTube for plumbers in Portland, that same video would likely work in San Diego or Dallas or Miami.

Jon:
Have you heard of, there's a company that sells TV commercials for local companies, and it's usually small car dealerships that buy these. And they all have the same script and they send them the props and the script, it's TV commercial in a box that they can then work with a local person with a camera to get it filmed. And I want to say it was John Oliver notice this trend on one of his late night shows. And what he did was went out and went across the country and found all of the same exact commercials redone 100 times and in each locale, and he just kept playing them. I was like, here's the exact same video, this one, this one's same commercial. And it was entertaining for sure, but sounds similar in theory. Maybe this wasn't a failure. Maybe you were just early to market.

Ryan:
Yeah, well, and our clients weren't probably quite there because our avenue of distribution was going to be let's talk to Logical Position clients and try to serve them and get them to expand into video. Because the issue historically has been the production. And YouTube is, I don't know if they're famous for, but they've had so many ways that they've tried to get people to create video from, hey, use your iPhone in this app and we will help you make a video that will help you advertise. Liked the tech, failed miserably. They had a deal where, hey, if you commit to spending five grand a month on YouTube, we'll send a local creator out to help you do a video. You kind of storyboard it and then we'll come shoot it. You've got two hours, three hours to shoot.

Jon:
Five grand a month, that's pretty good.

Ryan:
They really tried to get this going and it just largely didn't work, not because people didn't want it to, but because we really couldn't track anything. And YouTube was so far top of funnel at the time, we didn't have any data to say, is this the right audience? Remarketing was there. I had one of the first YouTube gurus at TQE before Logical Position before it bought us, it just never got there despite having us invested a ton in just the information and the ways it could work. So historically, I've always believed in video. It just never got to the point where we could really make something of it at scale across companies with smaller budgets. The way I look at scale, if you can do it for a few thousand dollars at a reasonable way, and you can see it monetizing, anybody spending hundreds of millions of dollars AT&T can make video work and they have for decades because they have nine figure budgets. So that's been bubbling in the background of my mind.
And then recently we've had Microsoft Ads released their connected TV product inside of ads. So you can just go into Microsoft ads and run connected TV similarly to how you would on Google run YouTube ads. And as recently as three months ago, they've had their connected TV product, but it was basically like, yeah, we'll help you get up on connected TV and they have an agreement with Netflix and you could use it. Your minimum monthly spend was like 50 grand. And then overnight it seems it was available in the Microsoft ads platform at no minimum. So I'm like, that is a massive shift internally at Microsoft. And then we have, everybody else seems to be talking through video and a lot of our partners are like, what are we doing video? So it's been bubbling and then this Microsoft change really got it Jumpstarted internally like, okay, how are we going to help our clients? It's scaled now that we could spend $10 a month if we wanted to in Microsoft ads on connected TV.

Jon:
That still doesn't remove the need for the production. It just makes it much easier to get it out there. Okay, let's say they spend that $10, but they invest thousands to produce a good video. Not that that's necessary by any means, but let's say it's just they've spent enough combined to have to worry about the return on investment here. So you mentioned this a minute ago, but previously just tracking return even on YouTube spend has been super tough. Is that changing? Because it feels like without the ability to track, you're still back seven, eight years ago?

Ryan:
Yes, and that is largely Google's fault again. I mean they own YouTube, but-

Jon:
That's not a good thing for them now to be able to track or it is or?

Ryan:
Well, GA4 is hot garbage.

Jon:
I don't think anyone will disagree with you.

Ryan:
I haven't met anybody yet that's like, man, GA4 is awesome and I'm so glad we got jammed into that system. I am frustrated with Google-

Jon:
Why you think it was delayed three times or whatever.

Ryan:
It was delayed. And then we've had Google, people even admit to us say, yeah, it was just this, it's like fire base or whatever it was before for mobile app downloads that they just re-skinned and didn't do anything with it. It was almost like them waving the white flag like, yep, our analytics is now done. We'll move to something different internally at Google. I mean they were the attribution and analytics platform for everybody. I mean, it wasn't even an option. It didn't matter what you were doing, you just had Google Analytics on your site. Now no one likes GA4. It may still be there, but it's opened the door for a lot of really cool attribution companies and tracking companies come to the forefront. I would say arguably Triple Whales probably the biggest name out there right now because they got backed by Shopify and they've been quickest to acquire a large volume of clients, at least in my research and who we partner with.
And they're doing a fairly good job of what they're calling first party data and allowing server side tracking it. Tracking right now is complicated, and I don't even want to get into that because it makes my brain hurt just thinking about it. But Triple Whales found ways to really show what's coming to the site and what is causing conversions even over longer timeframes. And their visualization models are really good. They've done a phenomenal job on their UI and being able to see how data's working. And they've even done a great job on allowing you to see if you're doing AB tests, like how this ad is working versus this ad and this demographic versus this demo. So they've again, really cool stuff and I think there's a lot of competitors that are inching their way into that space at the same level. North Beam, Rocker Box, two other competitors of theirs that I think are doing a pretty good job.
Triple Whale though, is actively building an integration into a connected TV platform called Mountain. And so that tells me, hey, Triple Whale sees a lot of data and they're saying, hey, we need to be helping people get attribution for connected TV platforms like Mountain. And that tells me, all right, follow the money and where the developers are being told to invest their time and Mountain is a connected TV. Triple Whale has done a lot with TikTok. In fact, that's where we really started seeing the value of Triple Whale and I would bucket TikTok into the video category at this point. It's not static ads, static images, it's video. And I don't know if I've talked about it on this, I've talked about it a lot externally, but we have a client in the beauty space that was influencer driven, which is I think the only way you start a beauty brand right now.

Jon:
Right. It seems like it.

Ryan:
They were spending a lot on Meta and Google and the founder that was big in the social space had a good TikTok presence and we're like, hey, we need to move some money to TikTok because it should be working. So we moved $5,000 a month over to TikTok. This was pre GA4 earlier this year actually. And we spent five grand on TikTok, $100 in revenue. Like, oh my gosh, TikTok is terrible. Stop spend. It was like a month and a half. We're like, we got to cut this off, not working. Enter Triple Whale and they're like, we're really seeing good data on TikTok. And we're like, really? I mean, look at this. This is ugly. They're like, trust us, here's some data. We'll help you get set up and running. Just look at this data we've seen. And we're like, oh, your data looks pretty good. Maybe we're just really bad at TikTok.
We put Triple Whale on and found out with the beauty brand that their average AOVs, I think right around 50 bucks. So it's more of an impulse buy, which is why we thought we'd see data that shows, hey, see it on TikTok go buy on the website within a day. The reality is people don't leave TikTok. If you're scrolling TikTok, you are on that and you're there for entertainment and you are not trying to go out and buy something. So what Triple Whale showed us was the average consideration to purchase process within this $50 beauty brand. Three weeks you would see it on TikTok and then three to four weeks later you would go buy it. And that blew my mind. I was like, how do you remember what you saw on TikTok three weeks ago? That is crazy.
Now there's probably some ads that keep it going through TikTok and your frequency and all that stuff, so that's part of it. But it takes people three to four weeks to go buy something from the time they first saw it on TikTok. And we were looking at it in GA4, trying to say in this three to five days after they saw it, nothing happened. We're spending much money, nothing. So we had to start looking at video differently, which I think was a big deal, big shift for us internally as we're looking at ad dollars.

Jon:
Longer term play.

Ryan:
Yeah. And so TikTok does perform very well. You just have to have the data behind it and then the ability to look at your creative and make sure that it's working and get feedback on that creative so that loop really is there. Create ad, measure, recreate ad, measure, that type of flywheel on all of your video. I think it's going to be really important to brands.

Jon:
Yeah. So you've mentioned TikTok a few times, Mountain, Microsoft, Connected Video, YouTube. Where else is video being used? What else should brands be thinking about at this point?

Ryan:
Well, obviously all the social areas, we've got meta platforms all have video. Snap still there still a place you can advertise. It seems to be shrinking as far as much I hear about or client's demanding work on there. But YouTube is kind of social, so you'll see it there still. But generally you're going to see connected TV become more and more buzzy. You'll see Amazon TV, the freebie and all that stuff, but following the money I think is key to seeing where trends are going to break out. A massive change that also brought this up in this last week was a lot of our brands and creators were working with talking about TikTok's move away from the creator fund.

Jon:
Yeah, I read about that.

Ryan:
Yeah. TikTok created this $2 billion fund to pay creators to create content. And when they were very public about it and it's, hey, when you're just throwing 2 billion out there, who's not going to pay attention? That fund ended and they started a new fund called the Creativity Fund. And so this shift I think is much bigger than it's getting credit for because I think a lot of people just look at it as, yeah, they just kind of changed the name and they're still paying creators to create content, which is true. But the video content that we've typically seen on TikTok has been kind of if I had to simplify, it's probably 15 seconds ish of people dancing or doing something that I can scroll through, view it and be like, ah, funny, funny. Okay, next. That's moving, because the Creativity Fund says the videos have to be over a minute. And that is as I kind of have TikTok-

Jon:
That does require some creativity, that's for sure.

Ryan:
It does. It's not just a simple, let me go dance for a minute because I might get tired. I'm not going to do that, but-

Jon:
I want to see your TikTok and you dancing.

Ryan:
I don't have TikTok unfortunately. So my experience has to be on Instagram meta. My Instagram is more like TikTok because I don't use Instagram really to connect with family and friends. Sorry about you family and friends out there, but it's not Instagram. That's where I follow funny golf videos, comedians, it's kind of like a probably how most people use TikTok. I'm scrolling through to laugh at something usually and get my mind off of it work or frustrations elsewhere. But stopping to watch a one minute video, there's very few videos at this exact moment that are going to capture my attention for that long and have me finish the video.
So I think it's really forcing these creators that have built a living as influencers on TikTok and meta platforms into a new area or a new business model where you probably have to storyboard some of these videos. You can't just start recording and get a minute of content and expect it to be good generally. I mean, commercials get storyboarded for 30 seconds on TV. So the fact that you're trying to capture attention and really be intentional about what you're doing, it's going to be a big shift.

Jon:
Do you think they're expecting the quality to go up with that because you do have to put so much more thought into a minute versus 15 seconds?

Ryan:
I assume so, and there's got to be data behind it. I don't assume a company as large as TikTok is now is going to make some very public declaration that they're moving here without any data backing up the value of that longer video to TikTok. It's all about TikTok, not the influencers. They don't care who's making the videos. It's time on the platform, which is important. So they're seeing if people watch longer videos, they spend more time on our platform, which means they're probably spending less time on other platforms competition there. And then over minute, I'm envisioning something kind of like YouTube where you've got that break in the middle of your video.
I use YouTube to fix things because I live on a farm, things break and I have to kind of figure it out. It might be a two minute video of how to fix a garage door and my shop that broke. Okay, halfway through, I've got to watch an ad, maybe I can skip it, maybe I can't, but it's breaking up my three minute video. So TikTok is probably going to start doing things like that. The reason TikTok works well is because their algorithm keeps finding things that interest you based on what you've watched in the past, who else looks like you and what are they watching? So I'm seeing it almost as the Netflix suggestions, but in a scrolling feed where I'm flipping through and it's like I don't have to think about. It just automatically plays that one minute video.

Announcer:
You're listening to Driving and Convert, the podcast focused on e-commerce growth. Your hosts are Jon MacDonald, founder of The Good, a conversion rate optimization agency that works with e-commerce brands to help convert more of their visitors into buyers. And Ryan Garrow of Logical Position, the digital marketing agency offering, pay-per-click management, search engine optimization, and website design services to brands of all sizes. If you find this podcast helpful, please help us out by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts and sharing it with a friend or colleague. Thank you.

Jon:
connected TV, we've got video on social. How are people monetizing this for e-comm though, right? Historically it's just been top of funnel awareness, low consideration, getting people to click through to that landing page or product page. What are you seeing lately?

Ryan:
I think the biggest change has been the data that you have around the videos and how people can interact with it. And so Apple iOS 14 update changed a lot of things in tracking, probably for the better. But what it did is it forced a lot of people to start rethinking, how can I track? And hey, if I move all of the tracking away from this onto this, we can track a lot more. So the innovation just in the last couple of years has been crazy. Not we, but smarter people than me have been coming up with to track and figure things out.

Jon:
That's interesting you say that. I just had a conversation the other day with somebody about Apple making these declarations and huge changes. I think the beauty of Apple and why they've been so successful is it's always worked out in a positive way for the consumer. And brands have moved and made it work, and that makes them innovate. I mean, removing Flash, just saying, we're killing Flash, basically. We're not going to put it on your phone, it's not going to be in our browser. We're just going to kill it. And that was for the best in the end because anything Flash could do, you can now do in a web browser. And that was not the case then in needed innovation.

Ryan:
No, that was a painful switch for a lot of companies on their websites.

Jon:
Yeah. And same thing with video and data tracking, especially this privacy angle that they're on right now at Apple. It's actually for the better for consumers because a lot of them did not realize that they were the product. And then brands continue to shift. I mean now we've got things like Triple Whale, et cetera, that really would not have existed. If this was the case, everybody would still be using Google Analytics and we wouldn't have GA4 in the same iteration because Google wouldn't have had to change it, right?

Ryan:
Yeah. We wouldn't have needed all this chaos in the last couple of years of we've got to solve this. And so again, it's kind of like the money. There's so many billions of dollars going into advertising that you can't assume that brands just going to be like, all right, fine, we can't track anything, so just keep throwing the money at it. Like no, I need to be able to say, I'm spending this money and I need to see a return that I can measure because we've been doing that for 15 years almost. So Mountain, I think is doing some pretty cool things in the connected TV video space where it's based on thousands of audiences you can choose. You can do locales to test and measure lift on websites as well, but it's IP based. So if I see an ad, for example, I don't pay for Hulu, but I watch only murders in the building because I just can't get myself to pay another five bucks a month or whatever it is. And so I watch three ads.
Mountain would know, hey, you saw this ad, I know it's on your IP address, I know this cell phone is on that IP address, therefore I can show an ad that relates to what you saw on the TV and then you can quickly take action on your phone. Before, if I saw an ad on TV, like the Super Bowl commercials a few years ago where you had to scan a QR code to figure out how to take action, you had to get people to move to a device they could interact with because I can't touch my TV up on the mantle or whatever. So that's been the biggest challenge. And now that's been solved with Apple's change in tracking, forcing, hey, we can do different things. Whoa, what if we just pay attention to IP addresses and say, hey, you probably saw this. If not it was your wife saw it, you can see it. So I think cool stuff there.
And the algorithm on Mountain focuses on return on ad spend. And so you tell it, hey, I'm an e-comm brand, they're built for E-com, by the way, e-comm first saying, hey, I need a 3x. And they're like, okay, we know what kind of ad sets work, here's your price point. Let's do some testing really quick. And this algorithm learns pretty quickly and allows you to monetize video in a way that previously it wouldn't have been easy to do, especially a smaller budget. Clients with Logical Position, we are starting as low as a thousand dollars a month in spend on there. That's crazy low for video spend across connected TV. You're advertising to people on a television for a thousand a month, where five years ago on linear TV, you were not going to be able to do that. And you can use simpler creative, you can do 15 second ads, 32nd ads.
So I like what's happening in the connected TV space, and we have Amazon jumping into the connected TV space pretty aggressively. And Amazon's got a lot of dollars behind things to force things to work. It's almost like they're buy with Prime. They are forcing that to happen somehow, some way. They just had to deal with Meta to allow people to check out on med. It's just crazy what they're doing. Anyway, they're doing that as well with connected TV. So they're coming out with a second version of connected TV. They have two layers early next year because of the Amazon Prime video with ads. So as an Amazon Prime member, we now have to pay something like $3 a month to not have ads on our Prime video. And if you don't pay the $3, you're going to get videos in there and it's going to be more expensive than the Tier Down, which is free V or their connected TV stuff. So I have exclusive ads available there, but they have 80,000 audiences.
The amount of data Amazon sits on from my purchase history on my phone device with my Amazon app, my wife buying on the same thing. They knew how old my kids were before I had to tell them for their fire devices. Like, oh, you've got a 5-year-old. What? I didn't tell you that yet. Well, you started buying diapers at this time, so we know you. I'm like, oh, touche, Amazon. So 80,000 audiences, Amazon's backing. There's going to be more and more people leaning into connected TV as brands find more and more ways to interact. Remarketing, if you have an Amazon store and a website thinking about how, all right, they looked at my product on Amazon, Amazon knows if they bought in that category or not. They're going to be able to create an audience of, hey, they've been researching baby clothes but haven't made a purchase yet. Let's get an ad for baby clothes on connected TV and then run an ad on a connected device on that IP address. Just creepy slash awesome.

Jon:
Yeah, I think that it's a great shift for marketers, and I don't know that it's that creepy because it's not individually identifiable. It's IP address, which can be if you're the only person on it, but that's unlikely. And quite honestly, most internet service providers change your IP address on a regular basis. Every time you reboot your router or the power goes out, you're probably going to get a new IP address. It's just kind of the way it works. So I'm not as creeped out by that as I am a lot of other methods, but okay, so we've covered a lot today. Thank you for educating me. I'm wondering now, where do I tell brands to start? If somebody's listening to this, what would they think the first step or next step should be for them?

Ryan:
The problem with video as a marketing channel comes down to creative. That's always been the barrier entry, and that's always what brands have been trying to overcome or smaller companies have been trying to overcome within these platforms. From the early days of YouTube knowing, hey, if you're on YouTube, we see success, top of funnel can't track as well, but you need a video. A lot of people created a lot of crappy videos trying to market and it just didn't work. And so smaller brands, you're not going to jump into commercial creation immediately. So you need to start simple and test your creative, get a TikTok channel for your brand set up. Get somebody on your social team creating some video. I don't know what that's going to look like for your brand, but you need to have a brand identity on social and test entertainment.
People are on TikTok to be entertained. And so if you're a B2B company and you want to talk about screws and nuts, okay, awesome. You've got to be able to do it with some entertainment value when you're going to go on TikTok. I don't think you're going to be able to make it tremendously entertaining all the time, but you're going to start seeing data points that tell you this resonated better than this. Your buyers, even if you are B2B, are probably on TikTok, unless they're me. I'm not on TikTok, I'm not your target market.

Jon:
I'm not either. I don't have TikTok. Call me old, but I don't have enough time in my day as is to spend time on get sucked into the algorithm, and I know that's what's going to happen to me, so I avoid it.

Ryan:
Me too. I'm fine getting sucked into Instagram. That's all I've got. So other than that-

Jon:
I was already sucked into Instagram before I realized what was happening to me and now I'm not going to repeat that mistake. Let's put it that way.

Ryan:
Yes, I think that's a safe way to assume I'm not crossing over because it would be terrible for my productivity.

Jon:
But I'm hearing from you. Start simple, do videos on TikTok, invest in something a little larger, a little longer than that.

Ryan:
Yep. And get a good camera, probably. You can do iPhone things, but you probably need to spend a few hundred bucks on a camera and take some tutorials. YouTube is probably really good for learning how to do TikTok. Oddly enough, there's probably a lot of tutorials there that I would be looking at what's worked. I would find some brands that I compete with that are on TikTok and see how they've been doing it. Not that they're always right, but it's very transparent on TikTok, what they're doing and how many views they have. You can boost posts there, spark ads and stuff to get more views. But again, it's just a brainstorming session. In my world, if I was looking at competitors on TikTok, what are they doing right or wrong? I like what they did there. I know what they're selling because I sell something competing. So that would be step one is to try to get the social places going, even enlisting maybe a creator on TikTok to do ads with you and you can boost posts there.
So if I found an influencer that was related to my industry, reach out and be like, hey, I'd love to do a collaboration video with you. What does that look like from a cost perspective? It can be really low cost, a way to borrow from their trust they've already built with their followers, they've got experience doing the content already because they're trying to make money on it, leverage that. It's not going to be free. So if you expect to go into video and have it be free, I think that's going to be a problem, especially as you now have to hit one minute on TikTok to start hitting their algorithm. Again, that causes you to have to think through what you're going to put out there.
So be comfortable investing in a commercial, and I'll use air quotes on that because it's going to be different than what you would've put on a television years ago where you're talking to the entire audience watching Dancing With The Stars, for example. No, you're going to talk to a very specific audience because you can get super targeted, two people that should be willing to buy from you based on the information all of these platforms have. But once you have a 15 or a 30 second commercial, you can start dabbling in other connected TV platforms at very low cost of advertising. So just be willing to test and measure a lot of those things.

Jon:
So 2024 is the year video for you, and I think you've convinced me, that's for sure. I mean, there's so much going on. I mean, we've talked about video for 35 minutes today. I am shocked that we were able to do that because I would've never thought that there was this much stuff going on in video right now, quite honestly. And that's fun to hear. So year of video coming up. There's a lot of easy ways to get started, but you do need to take it seriously is what I'm hearing.

Ryan:
Yeah. And you got to make sure you're sending them to site that converts right. You can't just send them to the crap about to return. You can't invest all your time and energy on the video and nothing on the actual site. So get better talk to Jon too.

Jon:
Appreciate that and advertising the right place, right? Make sure those videos are getting eyeballs. All right. Awesome. Well, thank you, Ryan. I appreciate it.

Ryan:
Yeah, thank you, Jon.

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Thanks for listening to Drive and Convert with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow. To keep up to date with new episodes, you can subscribe at driveandconvert com.