Drive and Convert

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You are listening to Drive and Convert, a podcast about helping online brands to build a better e-commerce growth engine, with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow.

Ryan:
So Jon, we've previously discussed you're moving the entire market of CRO into what you're calling digital experience optimization, which I think sounds a lot cooler, and I think it encompasses more of what you're supposed to do with what we used to call CRO. I'm excited about this shift and what you team is really leading the charge on. But a lot of what we've talked about so far is what it is, and how it differs from CRO, and how we're moving people, instead of thinking button changing and A-B test specifically on one page. You're having us, I don't want to say think at higher levels, but that's probably what you're doing. You're making me learn words like heuristics, and allowing people to think more about how people think. So we're thinking about thinking, rather than just making changes on a website just because, and then trying to test that. So I'm excited because today you've told me you're going to give me a psychology degree in the heuristics portion of DXO.

Jon:
Love it.

Ryan:
And I love learning, so I think this is going to be fun. And so let's chat about heuristics.

Jon:
All right.

Ryan:
But you have to start not only leading into this, I practiced the word, so hopefully I'm still pronouncing it right, but what are heuristics? And why do we need to be aware of it when all I want to do is sell things online?

Jon:
Well, so far you've said it correctly every time, to the best of my knowledge, so A+.

Ryan:
Yes.

Jon:
You're starting off with a gold star, we'll go from there. Okay. So yeah, what are heuristics? I think it's a great place to open this conversation, because I think a lot of people have heard the word but may not know exactly what it is. So in this context, what I want to talk about with heuristics are mental shortcuts. And I think these are going to be the key to unlocking optimal performance in your role and in your digital property, your website, app, etc.
Heuristics are, in short, they're mental shortcuts used to solve problems quickly and effectively. Okay, so they're shortcuts. It's the easiest way to think about them.

Ryan:
Okay. My brain is lazy, so you have to give it the way to get something easier.

Jon:
Exactly. Your brain is using heuristics all day every day, and you don't know it. And that's why. Heuristics is why you don't know it. They allow you to speed up your analysis to make informed and efficient decisions without having to do a ton of thinking about it. You're wired to take shortcuts and make quick decisions. This is inherent to all of us. So flip that and think about your customer. They play a crucial role in how your customers are navigating, and just overall perceiving digital experiences. So that's why this is super important. And yeah, it is higher level, but I think it's really important to understand this.

Ryan:
Okay. So shortcuts in my everyday life happen without me even thinking about it. I don't consciously try to say shortcuts to getting a spoon to my mouth, but I may try to create shortcuts in my everyday business world and simplify that.

Jon:
Exactly.

Ryan:
But how do you take this application of shortcuts and making my brain take the easy path when it comes to DXO, or digital experience optimization?

Jon:
Right. Well, this is where the psychology comes in for in heuristics one-on-one. I think you really need to understand that mental shortcuts are what your customers are relying on. And if you can understand this you're going to shift the focus squarely onto their experience. So it really helps you to get in the mindset of what are your customers going through, whether they know it or not, okay? Because if you ask somebody to tell you about their experience of something that happened five minutes ago, they're not going to give you an accurate description because they don't remember most of it. They weren't trying to remember it. But if you ask somebody in the moment, and a good example of this is user testing. If you ask someone in their moment to talk about what they're thinking, what they're feeling, they're able to do it. But you can't expect them to remember that. We're inherently bad as humans at recalling, because of mental shortcuts, our thoughts from even a minute ago at times.
So I think ensuring that we understand and adhere to these shortcuts really is going to aid users in quickly and successfully accomplishing their goals. And that's what we want, because at the same time, removing these barriers that really just interfere with these heuristics it builds a subconscious level of trust with your customers. We've talked a lot about trust signals in the past. This is why they're important. So, as you know, I unpack more of these behind the click, so we'll talk a little bit about that, I'm sure. But fundamentally, heuristics and digital experience optimization are just a way to frame common experience optimization challenges and turn them into a trustworthy experience. So, take a negative and turn it into a positive.

Ryan:
So I'm seeing some of this in the digital world with, I don't know if you come across as much, but the Google AI answer to things, where I don't have to click into another section.

Jon:
Yeah.

Ryan:
Now, I am an optimist at heart, but I'm a pessimist when it comes to Google giving me information without looking at the source and digging deeper. But I would imagine as Google builds trust in their answers to me, I'm just going to start accepting that, which can of be dangerous. But it's like, "Google give me the answer and I don't have to think anymore."

Jon:
Yeah, I think that's a good example. I also think there's a little bit of nuance in heuristics, in that often it's a shortcut that you're not thinking about. So you're actively judging that answer when Google shows it to you, so you are thinking about it, right? And that might be because it's new. It might be because there's some unknown there. But when you utilize and recall that answer in 10 minutes from now, do you remember whether you clicked on something or whether you got the answer from Google? Either way, you're probably not going to be like, oh yeah, that was an AI answer Google gave me, or I had to click on something to go get the answer. Probably you're not going to care. What you're going to remember was that you got the answer, and you got it from Google. And that's what they're banking on. And that's how they're using heuristics here, is they're thinking, what's the outcome people want? And they're not going to care how they got there. They're not going to be thinking about that later.

Ryan:
Interesting. Okay. You've mentioned, I believe your book mentions it as well, but there are three outcomes of using heuristics. And so what are those three outcomes?

Jon:
Correct. So there are three outcomes to digital experiences. It helps make them feel familiar. It does what it says it will, and it functions intuitively. So if you meet heuristics you're going to do those three things. And we can break them down quickly here. But the first, this feels familiar. So from the classic, I don't know, navigation menu to the ever-present search bar at the top right of the page, there's really this certain rhythm to digital experiences that we all know, right? Customers have developed this strong expectation of how websites and apps should function. I mean, the whole book, Don't Make Me Think, was about this, right? It's right there in the title. So when a digital experience adheres to these norms, customers are going to feel a sense of familiarity and control, and that subconsciously reduces the friction and makes them more receptive to your company. So by not introducing barriers you're actually helping them mentally to feel more familiar and be more comfortable with your brand and your online experience.

Ryan:
Got it. So for example, you would not put your Add To Cart button to the left side of a product image on a website.

Jon:
Yeah, exactly.

Ryan:
That would make my brain be like, something's wrong here, can't trust this, can't check out.

Jon:
Well, exactly. Say you wanted to go add that item to cart and you went to click on the Add To Cart button, it's not where you think it should be. All of a sudden, ooh, why is it over here? Now you start asking questions. Wait, if they're making me do this, what's wrong? Why is it over here? This doesn't feel familiar. You start to ask more questions, which inherently is pulling you out of the subconscious and making you question things that now you're going to have a negative connotation with. So don't make them work and don't make them think. And that goes in line with cognitive overload. All of this goes in line with cognitive overload of really putting a mental load on people that are on your site, it's the overarching expectation of a bad experience when you do that, so.

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You're listening to Drive and Convert, a podcast focused on e-commerce growth. Your hosts are Jon MacDonald, founder of The Good, a conversion rate optimization agency that works with e-commerce brands to help convert more of their visitors into buyers, and Ryan Garrow of Logical Position, the digital marketing agency offering pay-per-click management, search engine optimization and website design services to brands of all sizes. If you find this podcast helpful please help us out by leaving a review on Apple Podcasts, and sharing it with a friend or colleague. Thank you.

Jon:
Okay, so the second one does what they say. So I think this is important, because not only is trustworthiness in here, but customers crave predictability in transparency. So you're going to have to honor your promises, whether that's about your pricing, your refund policy, your product features, making sure you're honoring that is essential. When you introduce things like unexpected fees, convoluted purchase processes, like moving that Add To Cart button we just talked about, or hiding your terms and conditions, all these things violate customer's trust. So you want to be upfront about all the costs, and keep the interaction straightforward to build confidence and credibility with your customer base. So I think this is important because the minute you set an expectation and then don't fulfill it, you have now made them think, as I mentioned earlier, and it's generally going to be in a negative fashion. So, want to make sure you do that now. Do what you say you're going to do.
And then the third is your site needs to function intuitively. So intuitive design is crucial, especially for SaaS products because users are, let's just say, they're already familiar with countless digital platforms. We all know how to use different types of, I'm going to sign up for a CRM. I know what it's going to do and how generally it's going to work. So you don't want to force your customers to relearn fundamental workflows for your product. I think leveraging common design patterns and visual design cues is important here. This is why I mentioned when I do tear downs of sites, when something pops out to me that's out of the norm I call it out because your customers are looking for that information and they're having the same concern. So that's really the secret to me doing live tear downs is just what stands out to me that is different? That's what I should touch on. But when your product functions in a way that feels natural to customers they focus on the value you're providing, rather than the mechanics of using that interface. And that's really where you want to get to.

Ryan:
And I can hear the creatives listening to this, or in my line, cringing it. I don't want to be just a standard site that everybody forgets when they leave, or whatever, because everybody wants to have this cool looking design for their website. But the problem I can see with that is, again, you're causing people to have to think things, and that's not what you want. You want your branding or your product to maybe stand out, but the actual site itself should not cause me to think. I should just be, ooh, cool product, click buy. Simple.

Jon:
Right. Now, don't get me wrong, brand matters. And maybe your brand is disruption and you want people to have to explore and figure things out, and you don't care if they buy off of your website. That's okay. There's a lot of really high-end products out there that the website is built in that way. And it's built in that way because the people who are buying that are probably not buying it off the website. If you're buying a $200,000 sports car, you're not buying that on the website. But that experience needs to be really cool for the brand, because as an aspirational $200,000 car owner, which I'm not, but let's say I was, that would be I would go check out the website. It could be fun for me and I could get more affiliated with the brand, if you will. So there are examples where branding like that really matters, but as a designer you have to really care about the consumer. And if you care about the consumer and designing for the consumer's experience, you're going to take heuristics into play. And if you don't, you're really doing everybody a disservice there.

Ryan:
That was a great example that I don't even think you had prepared before I asked a question, but that's a good way to think about it. If your goal is transaction and to make it simple, great, but if you have a multifaceted approach to selling whatever you have, someday I hope to be able to buy a $200,000 car.

Jon:
I'd be afraid to drive it.

Ryan:
But yeah, I want to go drive it is what I want. Not site, forget that. But, okay. So how do we unlock these outcomes which improve it? So, I guess, tell me how to do what you just told me I need to do.

Jon:
Okay. Yeah, let's get to the meat of this because I know you're itching to deploy some of these tactics. So how do we do this? Well, okay, over 15 plus years at The Good we've developed, of course, a model for this that we have put together themes of common optimization issues and opportunities, with the user at the center of that analysis. And there are six heuristics in that model that we're looking at. You know I love my models, the patterns. I like to say-

Ryan:
You're much more organized in your thinking than I am.

Jon:
Yeah. I see bad websites everywhere because like the kid in... Oh, what's that movie where it's like, "I See Dead People."

Ryan:
Oh yeah, I see bad sites. Yeah.

Jon:
Yeah. So I like to put things into order so that it helps me to be able to use the internet without getting super frustrated. Okay. So the first thing is priming an expectation setting. You can apply a tactic like explicitly mentioning free shipping early in the journey to reduce customer abandonment rates, or sharing, I don't know, estimated delivery dates. That is going to set the right expectation. Or you can prime somebody to say, "I'll give you free shipping, but it's going to be free ground shipping." And if you want, when you get to checkout you see free shipping, but they know I can upgrade to overnight or today or whatever I want. And then on the flip side of that, having an estimated delivery date there is going to set expectations about when I would get that. So you want to prime and set those expectations.

Ryan:
And I have noticed, by the way, a trend of brands I buy from, on the delivery date, specifically extending the delivery expectation so they can over deliver.

Jon:
Yes.

Ryan:
That's an interesting tactic. I'm expecting it on Thursday and you're going to get it to me on Tuesday. Tuesday was probably the norm anyway. And you gave UPS or FedEx a buffer date, and then I get to be happy I got it early.

Jon:
Okay. So I got a new iPad about a month ago or six weeks ago now, and I ordered a case for it from the manufacturer. I had the prior version, I loved it, so I got it again. And they said, "Oh, it'll ship June 26th." Well, let's just say we're recording this, it's after June 26th. So I sent them an email and I said, "Hey, this hasn't shipped yet. When should I expect it?" And they replied, and they said, "Oh, I see you ordered the new iPad case. Those are expected to ship on June 26th." And I replied, and I said, "But today is past June 26th. That was my whole reason for emailing you." So they set an expectation when I ordered it and did not meet that expectation, and they gave me an improper expected delivery date and now I'm like, should have just cancel the order? What do I do?
So the second thing is trust in authority. So to follow this heuristic, you really want to do things like mitigating bugs. Build trust by featuring social proof, or consider adding additional educational, like how it works type of content for more complex products. So build that trust in the authority.
The third is ease. Ensure your interface is just easy to use. Pretty simple. Well, it's harder than it sounds, but the concept is pretty simple. You can use things like reducing content, so addition by subtraction, build in clear navigational elements, maybe do something like a mega nav so that I can see everything via the navigation and get where I want to go quickly and easily.
The fourth is benefits and unique selling points. So this is where you're going to highlight the benefits and unique features of products and services, to try to persuade users to purchase them here instead of someplace else. Okay. So what I mean by that is not just your competition, but maybe you sell DTC and in retail. What can you do to provide more information so that they feel comfortable just buying it from you today? Okay. What are the benefits of doing that versus going into the store? Do you offer a cheaper price? Do you offer expedited shipping? Do you offer more colorways that are unique to being online so that I know we can't get that color in retail? So test things like that. Test faster shipping or product quality highlights, things of that sort.
The fifth item is directional guidance. So support users in finding and discovering what they need through visual hierarchy. Way finding is a good example here. Guiding them to the next best step in their journey. So hold their hand through the entire experience. Predictive search, or even allowing them to sort lists go a really long way here.

Ryan:
God, I wish there was an easy button for sorting on most websites. Like, most popular. I was like, what does that even mean to me?

Jon:
I don't like most popular anyways, Ryan, because what's going to happen is your most popular product is always going to be your most popular product. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy because you're going to have it at top of the search or top as soon as somebody goes to the category page. And then guess what? People are going to be like, oh, that's the most popular product, they'll click on it. So then they buy it at a higher rate, and then you never give a chance to any other products. So you better make sure that most popular product is your best margin product as well.
So then there's incentives. This is the sixth and last one. But with incentives, notice what I don't say here. Okay. So you really do want to provide additional motivation, increase confidence and urgency to make the users purchase the product. But this is not discounting. This is offering things like expedited shipping for VIP customers, or doing types of guarantees, giving them some type of incentive. Ideally it's not a subtraction of a dollar or percentage off, it is an addition of something like expedited shipping or guarantee.

Ryan:
Wow, that was a meaty six points. Some of them probably much easier to execute. But as I'm looking at this list as a brand, do I just go down in order, or should I put some more thought process into where my brand should be thinking about ordering these or what I should bite off first?

Jon:
Honestly, you could do any of them. And start with whatever's easiest for you to get moving on, because any of these are going to help in equal proportion. But I would say that if you make a promise on your site you should fulfill that promise. That seems like a great place to start. Adding trust, okay. That's something that you can do along the way and build that up. But you can always be eliminating bugs, making it easier, adding content to help people make decisions. I think that any of these can be done, but they're ordered in this manner because typically if you start with the first then you'll end up having less to do at the bottom of the list.

Ryan:
And I think it's important for people to remember this is DXO, or digital experience optimization. It's not you're getting to a point and you're done and you forget about these six things.

Jon:
Right.

Ryan:
You're constantly making improvements. It's like your conversion rate. What's a good conversion rate? Well, it's one that's getting better. I think you've built that into my brain.

Jon:
Exactly. It's a win. I'll take it.

Ryan:
It doesn't stop. So optimization means it doesn't end.

Jon:
Right. Yeah. Just look to get 1% better on these every day. What is the one little tiny thing you can do for each of these every day? Don't expect to knock them all out at the same time. You're going to set your source up for failure that way.

Ryan:
Yeah, or just frustration that you can't get it all done in a day.

Jon:
Oh, there you go.

Ryan:
So, there's a common theme here. We're noticing you got to be thinking and constantly improving, but at the end of the day if your customer, those people who have come to your website, whether you've bought them there or you've earned them there, they're getting stuck in the journey. You have to figure out where your site is slowing them down and causing them to not have a smooth path to purchase.

Jon:
Right.

Ryan:
Is that an oversimplification, or is that pretty much encapsulating it?

Jon:
No, I think that's exactly it. And until that happens not much else matters, quite honestly, right? Armed with user research you're identifying common patterns or pitfalls that your users are experiencing, and then group those together based on the six areas I mentioned today. And then you can prioritize the themes from there, based on the impact and to your performance. And really, I guess, just develop a plan to test each of those improvements. But you'll have a much better plan and a roadmap for moving forward if you look at this model and follow those six. So yeah, overall, if you take one thing away from today, it's that the power of heuristics is being able to strategically and efficiently identify your digital challenges in a way that is centered on the user experience. And that's the key. If you're concerned about the consumer's user experience, the rest of these become so much easier to tackle.

Ryan:
If you've listened to this the challenge would be you have to just do something. You got to take a step somewhere, 1% a day. So when this releases Jon always has a post about it on LinkedIn. Go find him on LinkedIn and put a response in that post of what you did that day when you listened to this. I'm actually going to do it for myself, and I will be there in the comments.

Jon:
Love it.

Ryan:
I'll say, what point did I do of the six Jon mentioned? And let's just see how people can encourage each other in taking a step towards making your site not get people stuck in the mud.

Jon:
Love it. Awesome. Let's do it.

Ryan:
Let's do it.

Jon:
I am on LinkedIn for hours a day, so hit me up. I can't wait to respond to these and encourage you on.

Ryan:
Jon might be the easiest person to find on LinkedIn.

Jon:
Almost to the point where it's annoying, so yes.

Ryan:
Yes. Thank you, Jon, for educating me on heuristics, and now a new word I can pronounce easily.

Jon:
Hey, and you got an A+ as a student today, so thank you.

Ryan:
Thank you, Jon.

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Thanks for listening to Drive and Convert with Jon MacDonald and Ryan Garrow. To keep up to date with new episodes you can subscribe at driveandconvert.com